Rangerland Forum Information

[Hockey101]

No popular names in the debate in South Carolina, except for Ross Perot wannabe Ron Paul.

My reaction to that group (Pawlenty looked dead, Santorum uptight)....

[Hockey101]

I don't think it's as big a deal that it would totally finish his chances, but it does put a dent for sure.

[Ebase]

I don't think it's as big a deal that it would totally finish his chances, but it does put a dent for sure.

Gonna be real hard to pivot off of that brain fart.

This may shock you but I am going to defend John McCain vehemently here.

First thing is, as a politician I used to respect McCain. Against Bush he ran a campaign that was his own. He was a moderate centrist and had the ability to cross lines. He lost, and when he won the nomination he moved right to appease the lunatics on the right. If there is one thing about McCain that I always liked, it was his stance on torture. And no one in politics should dare question his credentials until they have been thru the levels of enhanced interrogation that he has.

I interpret this as an assault on a genuine American hero. He may have been the opposition during the election but to me his wartime credentials are above reproach.

The problem here 101 is that you are right, it does put a dent but that is about it. The right wing loves torture because I believe psychologically they are getting even with a fundamentalist who hates America. If you ever have studied anything about societies and mass murder you understand that the first step to genocide is to begin to see your opposition as less then human. Therefore, empathy disappears. This is what always concerns me about the casual way people talk about "enhanced interrogation."

Its a dent because the Bush campaign in 1999 painted McCain as a crazy punch-drunk lunatic for his moderate views and even used 501's to paint McCain as in some way unfit to serve because of what he had been through. I found this utterly disgusting.

Not to derail but I know that a post 911 McCain would have handled things far differently then President Bush did.

Santorum should immediately and publicly apologize to McCain but I agree ultimately the right is so ADHD and their hatred so deep for what they see as the ni*ger in the White House that if Santorum is the man, then he will be their man, McCain be damned...

[Hockey101]

Gonna be real hard to pivot off of that brain fart.

This may shock you but I am going to defend John McCain vehemently here.

First thing is, as a politician I used to respect McCain. Against Bush he ran a campaign that was his own. He was a moderate centrist and had the ability to cross lines. He lost, and when he won the nomination he moved right to appease the lunatics on the right. If there is one thing about McCain that I always liked, it was his stance on torture. And no one in politics should dare question his credentials until they have been thru the levels of enhanced interrogation that he has.

I interpret this as an assault on a genuine American hero. He may have been the opposition during the election but to me his wartime credentials are above reproach.

The problem here 101 is that you are right, it does put a dent but that is about it. The right wing loves torture because I believe psychologically they are getting even with a fundamentalist who hates America. If you ever have studied anything about societies and mass murder you understand that the first step to genocide is to begin to see your opposition as less then human. Therefore, empathy disappears. This is what always concerns me about the casual way people talk about "enhanced interrogation."

Its a dent because the Bush campaign in 1999 painted McCain as a crazy punch-drunk lunatic for his moderate views and even used 501's to paint McCain as in some way unfit to serve because of what he had been through. I found this utterly disgusting.

Not to derail but I know that a post 911 McCain would have handled things far differently then President Bush did.

Santorum should immediately and publicly apologize to McCain but I agree ultimately the right is so ADHD and their hatred so deep for what they see as the ni*ger in the White House that if Santorum is the man, then he will be their man, McCain be damned...

I like McCain in a sense that i respect him, but he is not a favorite politician of mine. Not sure how anyone can like a veteran pol like himself who pretty much said "i know how to get Bin Laden, so vote for me". If he knew how to, it was his duty to tell us. The guy is an independent leaning to the right. He talks like a centrist to independents and moderate democrats, but with the conservative base he put himself as this "hey, i am as conservative as Bush was!". Well.........which is it? You can't be both.

Now, i am in favor of torture. If i have to break a man's leg, arm, jaw, nose, and rip off his testies so he tells me where a bomb is that could blow up hundreds of people. I am all for it. If a thug on the streets would ever kidnap a family member of mine and not tell me where he/she was unless i would tear him up, then i am for it. Wouldn't you be?

Is it pretty? No. Do i like it? No. This idea that most conservatives are in favor of torture because they take a liking to it is ridiculous. Sure some fanatics, but who doesn't have fanatics? I don't like torture, but i am in favor of it if it helps us saves lives or catch bad guys that are ready to turn lives into deaths.

If McCain beat Bush and i presume Gore, then i don't know. It would be different, but you can't say for better or worse. Your personal opinion is one thing and i respect it despite disagreeing with it. My thought is, things happen for a reason. Obama happened for a reason and if people tell me "too bad McCain did not win, things would have been better" i say no. You can't know. McCain could have done worse than Obama, and i believe he could have.

And please...don't generalize the right by talking about their hatred for the ni... in the WH. That's taking it too far and you are ridiculously generalizing. Let's not go into these arguments and ruin a very well discussed thread.

[Ebase]

Now, i am in favor of torture. If i have to break a man's leg, arm, jaw, nose, and rip off his testies so he tells me where a bomb is that could blow up hundreds of people. I am all for it. If a thug on the streets would ever kidnap a family member of mine and not tell me where he/she was unless i would tear him up, then i am for it. Wouldn't you be?

Is it pretty? No. Do i like it? No. This idea that most conservatives are in favor of torture because they take a liking to it is ridiculous. Sure some fanatics, but who doesn't have fanatics? I don't like torture, but i am in favor of it if it helps us saves lives or catch bad guys that are ready to turn lives into deaths.

Do you understand the nature of torture, waterboarding, or the like?

Why don't you ask the Israeli's about it. They are the masters of getting information from enemies and they have not used torture for over 10-years. They understand that people will say anything in order to not be tortured any longer. Look at McCain. In his own book he writes how he bore shame because he denounced his own country. They broke him. He would say anything to get them to stop. Is that an effective means of extrapolating useful information? Torture a guy until he will say anything he thinks you want to hear in order to get you to stop?

I call BS. I think that most of the pro-tortuers fall into two primary threads when it comes to torture:

1. They actually think that it works. They believe that it has obtained myriads of actionable intelligence that stopped terrorism from occurring. Yet the credible corner's of government has released only vague references to its success. And the international intelligence community has scoffed at the notion.

2. They see it as revenge or treating them like the piece of shit they are. They see them as the enemy they are and so fuck 'em if they get tortured. They feel gratified that the asshole is getting all he deserves.

The truth is despite the potential of the fierce urgency of now scenarios torture has almost no effect. Know thy enemy!!! Who do you think you are dealing with? You think these guys will just have their will broken? They willfully take on the best that the American military has to offer without flinching. They have no fear of death in the process. They would put a suicide belt on their waist and blow it up in a crowd with tears of glee at martyrdom.

FBI, CIA standards and practices studies have clearly shown that torture has serious limitations in gaining accurate information. It is useless to extract intelligence from a person who is in so much pain that they will tell you anything in order to make it stop. Its a fact.

I suggest you read George Piro. He was the interrogator of Saddam Hussein who within 30-days had Saddam spilling information like a sib.

Santorum is a tool for his suggestions. Santorum should be ashamed of himself to make the assertion in support of torture over McCain's security clearance and knowledge of the situation. Santorum should be ashamed that he took a true American hero who had been subjected to the most brutal and ruthless torture available and decreed that McCain doesn't know what he is talking about. Ask John McCain who had his feet and hands beaten with hammers. Who had his collar bones broken and his shoulders cracked to the point he can no longer lift his arms. A man who has been tied to a post while ants bit him in the hot sun. A man thrown in a pit with piss and shit thrown all over him. McCain's story is so brutal it brings tears to the eyes.

Santorum was playing to a base who thinks like you do. And it is disgusting and far beneath what this country should be. Do you know several when I am talking casually with colleagues and clients outside the US Guantanamo comes up? Other countries in the 1st world think that we lost our God-damn minds. My wife's family in Manila has commented that we are so wrong for doing this. Thats the 3rd world we are talking about. And they don't even have the death penalty there. Maybe it is because they are Catholics and believe in the gospels. And some of these are not people who live in places immune to Al Qaeda's attacks.

Santorum can kiss off as far as I am concerned and so can anyone else who thinks this way. They are beneath me. And frankly, any Christian in all of its denominations that supports torture has violated its confessed allegiance to Christ and can no longer be considered part of his true church. I would call on you and any other follower of Christ to decree status confessionis. Or you better hope that God doesn't exist because you are so fucked.