Rangerland Forum Information

[Kusand]

More success in the war on terror. A dangerous baby from American Samoa with his mother and a nurse were detained on their way to the hospital for emergency heart surgery. The baby died in a holding room, thanks to the heads-up work of a crack team of agents at Honolulu airport. If not for their efforts to make sure everyone's paperwork was in order, a baby with a heart defect may have infiltrated our hospitals. Good work!

Fried showed the media documents yesterday, including one from U.S. Customs and Border Protection with the word "APPROVAL" in large type and a handwritten note that "Luaipou Futi may travel and stay for duration of sons (sic) treatment."

While in the Homeland Security room, "Arizona was very concerned and pacing back and forth, wondering when they were coming," Fried said. "After about 30 minutes in this warm, locked room, the baby starts to have problems with his oxygen. ... We're way past the time when this baby would have been in good hands at Kapi'olani. ... The door is locked. They cannot get out."

When they were first detained, Veavea, who speaks fluent English, explained to Homeland Security officials that Michael needed to get medical treatment, the lawyer said, and suggested that officials release her and Michael.

But officials detained all of them.

"Even if they had a valid cause for holding the mother of the baby ... there is absolutely no basis for holding the baby or the baby's nurse, who traveled with no luggage," Fried said, adding "the baby and the nurse are naturalized American citizens and have a U.S. passport."

Honolulu Advertiser

[CardsFan]

Fuck people. Seriously.

[Beamer]

And you guys want the government and their wondrous efficiency in charge of health care...

[Kusand]

And you guys want the government and their wondrous efficiency in charge of health care...

I do? That's weird. Besides, you want them monitoring everyone's movements to make prosecutions easier, as I recall.

At least we agree that the government isn't all that competent?

[Beamer]

The government is one of the least competent things on the planet, which is why all those "9/11 was an inside job!" theories slay me.

The less the government actually does the better. I prefer regulating to doing.

This post has been edited by Beamer: Feb 19 2008, 02:08 PM

[Tex]

okay, so I'm flying a critical baby somewhere for surgery.

Do I pre-arrange a hospital rep to meet me at the airport and possibly head-off any immigration delays?

Yes, I fucking do.

Did they? Maybe not.

Perhaps a phone-ahead of some sort could have prevented the problem, instead of hoping the system would simply recognize a baby and nurse with no luggage are not security risks. How did this happen? It happened because, like we covered in the last HS thread, the people with the badges on-site are not allowed to make judgment calls. They have to follow procedures. It sucks, but there it is. Should they have done the right thing and let the nurse and baby go? Sure, but there must have been something that made the officers hold all of them. Maybe bad communication with supervisors. Maybe a union break period got somebody at a bad time. The investigation will reveal what happened eventually, and hopefully, others in the same situation will learn to safeguard against a similar system failure. It's the best we can do.

[Kusand]

Perhaps a phone-ahead of some sort could have prevented the problem, instead of hoping the system would simply recognize a baby and nurse with no luggage are not security risks. How did this happen? It happened because, like we covered in the last HS thread, the people with the badges on-site are not allowed to make judgment calls. They have to follow procedures. It sucks, but there it is. Should they have done the right thing and let the nurse and baby go? Sure, but there must have been something that made the officers hold all of them. Maybe bad communication with supervisors. Maybe a union break period got somebody at a bad time. The investigation will reveal what happened eventually, and hopefully, others in the same situation will learn to safeguard against a similar system failure. It's the best we can do.

Why can't they make judgment calls? Are we really hiring guards so retarded that we can't trust them to recognize a sick baby? Taking all flexibility away from the guards ASSURES another catastrophic system failure, because the system is inflexible. This is how we shackle innocent tourists for days, and detain mothers for having the temerity to possess sippy cups. Because we're not hiring security, we're hiring robots to enforce flawed rules in the name of looking like we're doing something. I can't believe your defense of the government causing the death of an American citizen (14 days old, but he was a naturalized citizen) is "there are procedures to be followed." It more than sucks. It's enraging! How can you just write it off as a system error? Our system to "protect us" from terrorists LITERALLY JUST KILLED SOMEONE. That is FUCKED UP.

This post has been edited by Kusand: Feb 19 2008, 02:29 PM

[Beamer]

They can't make judgment calls because they are not allowed to.
This is the way the government works - red tape and ass-covering.
Judgment calls will lead to reprimanding. Not firing, though, ineptness doesn't get you fired in the government.


Again, it's why the more vital the service the less I want the government involved.

[Kusand]

They can't make judgment calls because they are not allowed to.
This is the way the government works - red tape and ass-covering.
Judgment calls will lead to reprimanding. Not firing, though, ineptness doesn't get you fired in the government.

Again, it's why the more vital the service the less I want the government involved.

Exactly. But it's the opposite of what we want. I hate to parrot Schneier, whose writing I've really enjoyed, but it's security theater - security for the sake of security. It's pointless and useless. It baffles me that people want to go along with it, or write off the loss of life in this scenario to "well, we'll work out the kinks next time," or pass the blame to the family because security is riddled with CYA bullshit.

This post has been edited by Kusand: Feb 19 2008, 03:12 PM

[Beamer]

Hey, it's the life of one baby for millions of Americans...


Or so someone would certainly say.



Do these security measures do anything? I don't know. By and large I don't care - security lines in the airport are overexaggerated and usually not a real problem. Just kind of ridiculous.
Detaining people based on a list? I guess it's better than racial profiling. And I guess there will always be instances of retardation attached to it.
But this is extreme by any measure.

[Tex]

Exactly. But it's the opposite of what we want. I hate to parrot Schneier, whose writing I've really enjoyed, but it's security theater - security for the sake of security. It's pointless and useless. It baffles me that people want to go along with it, or write off the loss of life in this scenario to "well, we'll work out the kinks next time," or pass the blame to the family because security is riddled with CYA bullshit.

I'm with you on this, Dude. Totally. Just sayin', people in the future might need to take steps to avoid similar complications. You have to preemptively fight the stoopidity. It's sad, but, it's where we are today. Maybe we can change it. Maybe Obama can fix it. Until then, you gotta be smart on your own and make the effort to avoid totally relying on the system to do the right thing on it's own. If that means making arrangements through your senator for an emergency visa of some kind, well, do it. Chances are, the more fucked-up looking something is, the more likely the short-bussers at the gate will fuck it up if they have to act without any prior notice to guide them. That's all I'm saying.
You and I both know that a lady with a sick baby is a no-brainer to let through. But, No-brainers are what is working the gates. It's boring work and only LCDs want to do it. Mall security with Federal powers. Scary.

(aside: Oh, and stealing from my fucking luggage. The fucking fuckers. I had loaned my BSG seasons 1, 2 and 2.5 to my uncle in Manassas and flew home with it last year after the Caps game trip. It was gone from my luggage when we got to Austin. /aside)

[TheAnaconda]

Ok, I didn't read the article, but if the baby and the nurse were american citizens with passports, why were they held at all? ESPECIALLY, after it was explained the baby could/would die? Gimme a fucking break. What probably happened, the brash airport security (read: failed police officers) probably didn't believe her, and thought they were just trying to sneak the nurse in with the baby as an excuse. There's no reason why one guy couldn't call a supervisor and explain about the baby. No one wants a potentially dead baby on their hands, and its not like airport security couldn't have escorted them to the hospital. I hope the people responsible are followed for the rest of their lives by people who never let them forget what they've caused, regulations or not. The Nazi soliders were just followed regulations too.

[TheAnaconda]

It's kind of depressing that all that comes from instances like this is a few thousand people complaining on the internet. Things like this will keep happening and outside of not traveling, there isn't really anything we can do.

It also pisses me off when I see "officials declined comment" on the issue. No, fuck you. An infant is dead because of you, you don't get to say "no comment" anymore you fucking assholes.

This post has been edited by TheAnaconda: Feb 19 2008, 06:13 PM

[Kusand]

It's kind of depressing that all that comes from instances like this is a few thousand people complaining on the internet. Things like this will keep happening and outside of not traveling, there isn't really anything we can do.

It also pisses me off when I see "officials declined comment" on the issue. No, fuck you. An infant is dead because of you, you don't get to say "no comment" anymore you fucking assholes.

On the "bright side," five Congresspeoples are calling for an investigation this time. American Samoa Del. Faleomavaega Eni, Hawaiian Congressman Neil Abercrombie, Rep. Peter King, and Hawaii Sens. Daniel Akaka and Daniel Inouye have all called for an investigation in some way. Not nearly publicly enough, though.

I'm tempted to email friends/family about it, but I hate unsolicited political email. But something needs to be done; our notion of "security" is fucked.